Navigation - route and track line improvements?
Morning all,
I am currently using my Cross to navigate during long bike rides.
While routes that never cross nor backtrack work fine, quite a lot of the riding I do is to go and tick off Veloviewer tiles or visit British Cycle Quest locations. This means that I often have sections which consist of an out-and-back along a road, sometimes with multiple branches (imagine branches of a tree, trying to reach the end of each from the main trunk.)
For this usecase I find the Cross (or rather the common software) infuriating. The map is good, the screen is good, battery life is great, but the route lines are not great - do other people have similar issues?
Compass Rose: I always run with "Map Orientation" "Track goes up", is there a setting I've yet to find to set a permanent compass rose (or at least suitable arrow) on the map screen, which would make locating oneself "in the big picture" much easier (i.e, I can remember roughly what the route looks like and where I should be given the riding time, but knowing which direction I'm travelling in is a nice reassurance that I am indeed where I thought I'd be)?
Size/colour of track arrows: Is it possible to change the size and colour of the direction arrows on the route and navigated track lines? Slightly colourblind, some of the choices are quite hard to differentiate from the background map. Much larger arrows would be appreciated to make it less effort to glance at the map.
Direction arrow placement: I'm guessing the arrows are placed on some sort of distance interval dependant on the zoom level. This produces some non-optimal outcomes though - on my ride yesterday I had arrows (on an out-and-back leg) which were pointing at each other and touch (i.e. ><) and due to the small size and colour these just look like a rectangle, especially when riding on fast roads and wanting to glance at the map. I also had the case where I could only see one of the direction arrows at the given zoom level, which meant I was confused about the route - I'd expected it to be out-and-back and had to fiddle with the map to zoon out to realise that the direction arrow was there, just not in view. It would be much nicer if out-and-back legs combined the arrows in a fixed configuration to make it easy to understand at a glance (e.g. always <---> or similar.)
I've no idea why, but it appears that the "Navigated Track" is drawn on top of the route. This probably works well if you're not backtracking, but if you are it isn't helpful. Could the Tracks be rendered in 3 passes from bottom to top: Route already ridden, Navigated track, Route yet to be ridden?
Last but by no means least, it would be wonderful if at points on the map where the reoute crosses itself (i.e. actual crossings, and also nodes of branches, which are all easy to detect from the route GPS data) an additional GUI element could be temporarily overlayed to indicate which direction should be followed. There's currently no way to know without zooming out and remembering how you planned the ride (which is demonstrably sometimes quite hard after 9h or riding.) I have tried to overcome this by adding waypoints with direction arrows at the appropriate location, but it didn't work very well, especially when the road conditions were complicated so I missed the waypoint (which I tended to put ahead of the actual decision point.)
Perhaps some of the above already work, any suggestions welcome as I may well have missed things. Also this may not be right place to request product enhancements - do TwoNav look at these posts?
Thanks,
Simon
Examples below:
Where to go next? (navigated track over route):
touching and rather small and indistinct route arrows (sorry it's not in focus, but perhaps this is useful as it's more representative of how one glances at a map when riding):
-
Hello
I think you should prepare your route, using the Road Book mode (Turn by Turn) the confusions you mention will disappear and the guidance will always be towards the next maneuver point, by placing the right icon the question of direction to take no longer arises.
In a Road Book (Turn by Turn) the Wpt and the track are chained, included in the same file.
It is also necessary to cut the routes, there is no point in following a track of several hundred kilometers unless you add confusion.
Cut according to the logic of your itinerary/schedule.
Placing a WPT on a track doesn't do much, integrating a WPT into the track guides you towards this WPT by following the track. If you have one for example at the end of a branch, it guides you towards the end, the return branch will no longer disturb.
For your case :
A compass in the map I've already asked TwoNav, maybe one day! There will be more people requesting...
It seems to me that it is mainly a usability problem. Either your route is a simple GPX or a road book or "Turn by Turn".
If it is a simple trace type GPX, the guidance tends to take you towards the end, if the planned route is not followed as planned, correct guidance is impossible because the machine no longer knows what You want to do.
You have to go back to the start and he will try to make you follow the route in the opposite direction. This is true for all guidance systems without automatic routing. In the case of a simple trace It is better to forget the loops and back and forth because there is no good solution.
If it is a "Turn By Turn" or Road Book it is less confusing, because the guidance will always guide you to the next waypoint. It is possible to cut or reverse the tracking because the software will understand the passage to a "future" point and it adapts the guidance from this last "Wpt".
In general if you take a "Turn By Turn" in reverse, if at the top left it is the icon, you must touch the area to see the direction which indicates that the correct direction is behind your back.
If the route (Road Book or Turn By Turn) that you have created includes a track and points (Wpt, POI, etc.) it can be saved in *.gpx or *.trk formats.
In the *.gpx format the "Wpt" are grouped in the file, the software has no information to distinguish two icons (Wpt) placed on one on the outward / and the other on the return it guides to the nearest one which is not your future destination.
In the *.trk format the "Wpt" are integrated (linked) to the track, the navigation software always uses the next points on a combined outward and return trip, there is no more confusion..
Screen shot take in live...
Best regards
-
Thanks Thierry,
I am using a Roadbook trk file, and I did think part way through that I should have put a roadbook point at the end of each tile-ticking deadend so that I knew roughly which way I should be going at a junction. It's a bit annoying to need to do this, the other issue is that the direction arrow and distance appear to be "as the crow flies", so if my out-and-back starts off in a direction that's not aligned with the eventual end-point, it can still be quite confusing (and worrying as the distance is going up not down!).
I did also try to place a roadbook point just before each turn, but depending on how close the nearest point was to the turn (using free version of Land so can't add points once converted to a trk afaict) I would be too busy looking at the road junction/traffic/etc and would miss the notification arrow. I suppose it should appear quite early for me to be able to see, but because I added them manually I was never sure whether it was telling me about the current junction or something later so I tended to look down at the map to see where the symbol was (and often too late).
If I were thorough then it could be made to work, however it's quite a lot of extra effort, and some changes to the display would remove the need for all of this manual waypoint generation (i.e. an overlaid arrow where tracks cross/overlap provided by the GUI would solve all the problems) - I like maps and planning routes but this is a thing that could easily and should be automated (so perhaps I should do it myself by post-processing the trk file to add waypoints with appropriate arrows.)
Re cutting up the track/route, why? If it's a single ride it's just more faff to need to do this and can it even navigate across more than one file? Or did you mean if someone's going a multi-day tour, in which case of course there's little sense in having a larger route loaded than necessary. My usecase is generally ~200km Audax-esque (not accredited) rides.
-
Hello,
I am using a Roadbook trk file, and I did think part way through that I should have put a roadbook point at the end of each tile-ticking deadend so that I knew roughly which way I should be going at a junction.
This is the principle of the Road Book (Turn By Turn) a point at each end of the branch and bifurcation
the direction arrow and distance appear to be "as the crow flies", so if my out-and-back starts off in a direction that's not aligned with the eventual end-point, it can still be quite confusing (and worrying as the distance is going up not down!).
No, you will have the icon on the map and at the top left (if requested by the configuration) or the direction as the crow flies (You must touch the area). The distance is the updated distance to this point of the planned route as well as the elevation difference if planned of the displayed.
I did also try to place a roadbook point just before each turn, but depending on how close the nearest point was to the turn
No, We place the points where we want them (And you can also add points on the track if it is lighter) and you can program a distance alert (a circle around the point) at the distance you consider necessary, you will be notified by an audible alert if it is provided for by the configuration. Image notice 20 m. But don't ask for the moon, or be too demanding with a minimalist version!
Set a distance around the Road Book points according to your reaction time, an audio beep and we look at the map.. Map change output a memo from the future.. Nothing more or less business
If I were thorough then it could be made to work, however it's quite a lot of extra effort,
The tool that does this work automatically with Land is "FAST TRACK". It is not available in the basic version, but it is done automatically or almost!
Cut it up, when I do 200 km which also happens to me I cut off for example in stages between the checkpoints. In addition, it allows you to have the estimated time of arrival at the checkpoint. Simply launch an activity from a point (departure or control) and close on arrival at the control point for example. Which removes the extra travel/registration at the checkpoint. Once finished it is possible to unite the records and you have the global and all the intermediates!
Everything is possible, it's just the way you use it that you have to adapt. On a route with the configuration adapted to Road Book mode I never need to touch my GPS and only take a look at it when it beeps.. Configuration/map view/ always see, minimum scale 0.25 m per pixel or see always... Add the bow line and you will set it to indicate your position in a minute (for example) it tells you where you will be in the minute without having to touch anything.
See...
-
Complement..
The map is a vector map, the data comes from a geofabrik import, then it is Land which will create the map (Higher version of Land). The appearance, the visual, a personal customization (It's also Land), for mountain biking, gravel, cycling this type of map is more than enough, it is easy and quick to read, there is no need to orient given that it is a route follow-up, the very important relief on two wheels is an import of data from IGN France converted into curves and integrated into the map with Land (I saw that 'in Great Britain, like in France, it is possible to import altitude data from the official government site), which allows you to have a relatively precise predicted relief. For the colors it is deliberately very simple. Yellow we see the sky, Green it is under a canopy. This is enough to follow the progress on the map when it is useful to reassure yourself, yellow, distant landmarks are visible, green, close objects must be used.
Best regards
-
The appearance of the maps is fine, it's the lines + arrows I have troubles with - specifically the size and colour of the arrows. Perhaps I can find a line colour that works better with the arrow colour, I'll experiment.
I still think an on-screen compass would be useful as a reassurance that you are indeed travelling in the direction you expect to be going, and if not you can look at the map.
Regarding relief, I tend to look at the gradient data on a PC while planning rides, once I'm out and riding I'm committed and there's little point in second guessing the choices I made with all the information available to me, though for on-device planning and detours this is a good point.
Something like the Garmin ClimbPro would be useful for specific climbs - but perhaps there's a way to zoom in on the elevation graph that is displayed the bottom of my map screen (more experimentation to do), it would be nice if the TwoNav software had a plugin architecture so that users could implement and provide functionality that they specifically want (e.g.a ClimbPro page to add to the others).
In your screenshots post just above, on the righthand side at the bottom you say "(very large issues)" - is this specific to a track that lacks estimated time, or to do with the calculation of the estimated time?
An estimated time is quite useful, I see this is generated in Land (even the free version, though I've just subscribed for Pro so I can actually try out all of the features), is it adaptive? Taking into account how fast you've ridden the first part of the route and/or are riding over the past X minutes, or does it use the estimated time/velocity profile from Land and then offset it to wherever you are on the route?
Thanks :)
-
Hello
I still think an on-screen compass would be useful as a reassurance that you are indeed travelling in the direction you expect to be going, and if not you can look at the map.
I am of your opinion, I have written to TwoNav several times, arguing about their communication campaigns concerning the use of their GPS in low visibility conditions. Two very important things are missing from the map, an indication of the direction north and an indication of the direction to go (GoTo). They should wake up one day, which is another question.
Something like the Garmin ClimbPro would be useful for specific
Climb pro is not perfect, there are artifacts from Garmin and their competitors, the development time will be long. I have had the opportunity to test this function for two weeks, the main problem is the division of the slope zones. A typical example is a well-marked 8% ascent, but in the Climb the 8° zone is submerged over a greater distance which reduces the slope to 5°, so it is difficult to manage the notion of effort required. based on the ClimbPro (On the screen) the direct view is more meaningful. Curves when you know how to read them are more precise.
In your screenshots post just above, on the righthand side at the bottom you say "(very large issues)" -
No, it is an illustration of the multiple possibilities of Land, it is possible to define a departure time and a speed, to play the route.
Une estimation du temps est très utile, je vois qu'elle est générée dans Land (même la version gratuite, même si je viens de m'abonner à Pro pour pouvoir tester toutes les fonctionnalités), est-ce adaptatif ?
Estimating the departure time with Land is indicative and useful in the preparation phase to either play the route (Play function) or estimate the necessary time.
During your activity, the estimated time of arrival is constantly updated and based on the average speed calculation criteria that you have defined in your configuration.
The thickness, color and appearance of the track must be defined in the GPS configuration (for each configuration) for both the track (Road book) followed and the track recorded.
Best regards
Please sign in to leave a comment.
Comments
16 comments